Unlearning Everything We Know About Bodies With Lizzie Fischer

In this episode, I’m joined by Lizzie Fischer, an intuitive eating counselor and recreational therapist specializing in body image, for a conversation about all the ways we learn to disconnect from and control our bodies. We talk eating disorders and orthorexia, religion and purity culture, the pressure to be a “good girl,” when “health” becomes an obsession, beauty standards, self-trust, and finding your own way back to your body.

Learn more about Lizzie by visiting her Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lizziefischer.coaching/ 

I would love to hear from you on Instagram!
https://www.instagram.com/rebeccasigalastudio

Transcript

Rebecca Sigala 0:00

Welcome to the Body Image Revolution. I'm your host, Rebecca Sigala. If you're new here, hey girl, welcome. I'm a body confidence coach and boudoir photographer. I've been doing this incredible work for over a decade, helping women all around the world come home to their bodies and feel beautiful and sexy in their skin exactly as they are. I'm based in Israel, but I travel worldwide and offer experiences that are both in person and virtual. Today is an incredible episode to land upon because I am talking with the amazing Lizzie Fischer. She is an intuitive eating counselor and recreational therapist who specializes in helping people with their body image. And I loved this conversation because even though Lizzie and I come from different religious backgrounds, we found, like, so much common ground in the messages that we grew up with around purity culture, and our bodies, and the pressure to fit in and be a, quote, unquote, good girl" and just do everything right. Lizzie is really open about her story and shares about her own experience with eating disorders, including bulimia and orthorexia, and we talk about just so many things. I honestly could have talked to her for hours. We talked about the overlap between religion and diet culture, and how trying to be healthy or take care of yourself can sometimes be another form of control or obsession. We talk about Jillian Michaels, and plastic surgery, and body love versus neutrality. Just so much. There's so much in this conversation, and I really loved how this conversation evolved. Let's get into it

Lizzie Fischer 1:42

Hello, how's it going?

Rebecca Sigala 1:44

Good. How are you? I'm doing

Lizzie Fischer 1:47

well.

Rebecca Sigala 1:47

thank you so much for coming on. I'm really excited to chat with you and see where this goes.

Lizzie Fischer 1:53

Me too.

Rebecca Sigala 1:54

Can you share what you do and- where you're from and just a little bit about you.

Lizzie Fischer 2:01

Yeah. Okay. my, like, formal title is that I'm an intuitive eating counselor and I'm also a recreational therapist, which- Mm-hmm is a niche career. A lot of people haven't heard of that before, but I have my master's in what's called therapeutic recreation. And it is movement and activity based therapy interventions. There's a lot of different ways to describe it, but a lot of people work with people with disabilities or with, like, cognitive learning things. What else? Um, a lot of physical disabilities as well. I personally lean on the mental health side. So I work with people on, like, how can we look at your situation and look at all the domains of wellbeing and pour into all of those things to elevate your wellbeing- Mm-hmm as opposed to, like, picking one in particular. so that's kind of the approach that I take with my intuitive eating counseling as well, and with that work, I do follow the intuitive eating principles for sure. any intuitive eating counselors don't, come running for me here. But I, I do take my own approach as well, just because it's what I've seen work for me and my own journey.

Rebecca Sigala 3:05

Yeah. It's so interesting with intuitive eating, 'cause I feel the same way, that there's so many principles that have really helped me and my clients over the years. Mm-hmm. But then it's like if you're too, adherent, I guess, to it, then it just becomes another set of rules.

Lizzie Fischer 3:21

Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think so too. Which- Yeah I know, uh, one of the big, like, intuitive eating influencers out there, Christy Harrison, she always talks about that. Yeah. She's like, "Don't make intuitive eating just another diet."

Rebecca Sigala 3:32

Totally. It's like anything that you want to be like that could be, so it's important to just be aware of that. For sure. did you start doing intuitive eating after you got your therapy degree?

Lizzie Fischer 3:44

Yes. So I, well- Like for myself or for my clients or both?

Rebecca Sigala 3:49

Like how'd you get into intuitive eating? what was the thing that, that sparked your interest in it? I guess personally probably first, right?

Lizzie Fischer 3:57

Yeah, absolutely. So I dealt with my own eating disorder, from so many different reasons. Like to answer one- Mm of your previous questions. I'm, I live in Texas, so I live in the Bible Belt. Um- Mm and there is a lot that goes along with religion and our views of our bodies. Um- Oh, yeah I know I've heard you talk about that a little bit. So that is another part of like my niche is working with people on deconstructing these unsupportive beliefs that we have about our bodies- Mm-hmm uh, that come from religious culture. So like believing that our bodies are bad, sinful, prone to- Yeah to desire the wrong thing, right? Yeah. And starting to heal that relationship through

Rebecca Sigala 4:37

understanding- Living in Israel, like there's so- Mm-hmm much of that purity culture and traditional- Yes thinking, so I really relate to that. Maybe that's something that we can get into. I love that. Yeah. I love that you do that.

Lizzie Fischer 4:49

Absolutely. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 4:50

Is that how, is that how you were raised?

Lizzie Fischer 4:52

Yes. I was raised in like very conservative Christianity.

Rebecca Sigala 4:56

Oh, wow. Or

Lizzie Fischer 4:56

Evangelical Christianity, but yeah, they overlap these days.

Rebecca Sigala 5:00

Wow.

Lizzie Fischer 5:01

Mm-hmm. And

Rebecca Sigala 5:02

how did that contribute to your relationship with your body?

Lizzie Fischer 5:07

Right. So- I- It's kind of

Rebecca Sigala 5:09

a big question.

Lizzie Fischer 5:11

Yeah. I grew up with five siblings. Like, and a mom who was very entrenched in diet culture. Like she is- Yeah I think in the baby boomer era. So peak diet culture, peak like thinness, which it's, it's come back around, but I feel like she was at- Totally come

Rebecca Sigala 5:30

back. I was

Lizzie Fischer 5:31

gonna say the first, the first phase of that. And all the different diets, we tried them all growing up. So it was like between- Like you

Rebecca Sigala 5:38

and your mom, like together?

Lizzie Fischer 5:40

Correct.

Rebecca Sigala 5:40

Wow.

Lizzie Fischer 5:41

Correct. Yeah. That's

Rebecca Sigala 5:41

really intense.

Lizzie Fischer 5:43

She tried to not like project those things onto me, but I'm also like, "Well, this is what you're eating," and like, "I love you, so I'm gonna do it, too." Um-

Rebecca Sigala 5:51

Makes sense.

Lizzie Fischer 5:52

Yeah. So between like religious messaging plus also having a mom who was very deep in diet culture, plus also I come from a family where like we have a bigger build. Like I've never been the small friend.

Rebecca Sigala 6:04

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 6:04

And so I always saw myself as too big, taking up too much space. Mm-hmm. I think I also dealt with a lot of social anxiety, and I just projected all of that onto my body, like blaming my body for my problems.

Rebecca Sigala 6:17

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 6:18

Yeah. And so- That makes a lot of sense. Mm-hmm. And then getting into college, I was like, "Oh, I-" I can do whatever I want to solve this problem, which led to disordered behaviors around food. There was always calorie counting, but it became an eating disorder because I was like, "I can have my fun in college- Mm-hmm and I can throw up my food and it's fine." Yes. Which was an intense thing that lasted for seven, eight years. And then intuitive eating is what got me out of that, because I was listening- Oh to Christy Harrison's podcast, and she talked about, which I don't really know how I found it. I'm just gonna say it's a gift from God, um, that I like was looking through. Divine intervention right

Rebecca Sigala 7:01

there.

Lizzie Fischer 7:02

Yeah. and she talked about orthorexia, and I was like, oh, that is me. I'm, like, it, I, health was my

Rebecca Sigala 7:12

personality. Can you share what orthorexia is with everyone?

Lizzie Fischer 7:15

Yeah. So for me, I had dealt with bulimia for a while. Mm-hmm. But when I walked out of that, I just took on a different disorder, which was orthorexia. So orthorexia is- Mm an obsession with health to a point where it feels moral, where you make your health food choices out of this is my identity. Mm-hmm. Like, I do this because it makes me better- Mm-hmm than other people. Um- Yeah it is self-preservation, protection,

Rebecca Sigala 7:48

and re- I'm doing the

Lizzie Fischer 7:49

right

Rebecca Sigala 7:49

thing.

Lizzie Fischer 7:50

Yes, and regulation. I know better. Which again, mm-hmm. And again, with, like, religious messaging, always wanting to be right, always wanting to be as upstanding, as best as possible.

Rebecca Sigala 8:02

Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Fischer 8:03

It's super easy to fall into, like, orthorexic behaviors with that.

Rebecca Sigala 8:07

Right. Yeah. That is really interesting, 'cause sometimes I find with religious culture it can kind of be a similar thing to that. Mm-hmm. Like, moral superiority and, well, I'm doing the right thing, and it's very much like people being in comparison mode with each other versus focus on themselves and their own relationship with God.

Lizzie Fischer 8:28

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 8:31

with you know, growing up very religious, I just find it so interesting. I live in a pretty religious Jewish community in Israel, and it's like, you know, there's so much talk about spirituality and relationship with God, and everyone's learning, and everyone's doing good deeds, and then everyone is still so entrenched in diet culture.

Lizzie Fischer 8:57

Hmm. Really, even there.

Rebecca Sigala 8:58

And I'm curious, like- Hmm is it the same in, like, for you growing up? Is that something that was spoken about in your community and with your- Yeah mom's friends and things like that?

Lizzie Fischer 9:10

Absolutely. I mean, I think it's like the idea that your body is a temple, and that, like, you need to take care of it as if-

Rebecca Sigala 9:16

Mm-hmm

Lizzie Fischer 9:17

you know, how Jesus would. I don't know, like, what the language is anymore 'cause I don't, I don't really, like, walk that same line of religion that I used to. Yeah, that makes

Rebecca Sigala 9:25

sense.

Lizzie Fischer 9:26

But I think that it is this idea that it is the right thing to do, and foods are even labeled as, like, good and bad. Yeah. And so it's very easy to start to feel like when I eat this way, I am morally right, and when I eat this way, I'm morally wrong. Right. And I don't respect myself, and I don't take care of myself, which is all untrue. It is. But...

Rebecca Sigala 9:47

Right. Yeah. Such black and white perfectionist thinking.

Lizzie Fischer 9:52

Yeah,

Rebecca Sigala 9:52

absolutely. Which I think kind of comes from just, like, I'm not enough. It sounds kind of simple, but-

Lizzie Fischer 9:57

Mm-hmm

Rebecca Sigala 9:58

it's like- Yeah, no trying to do anything you can to kind of validate- Mm-hmm your existence or your worth.

Lizzie Fischer 10:05

I think so, too. I think that it's a lot of- outward seeking, which is ironic being in the, the religious culture 'cause you're supposed to- Right like, the idea is that you are enough because you have, like, your relationship with the divine.

Rebecca Sigala 10:20

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 10:21

But I think that that is hard for people to maybe fully embody, and so we rely on these external things, like-

Rebecca Sigala 10:30

Right, which is also very-

Lizzie Fischer 10:31

Our size human and

Rebecca Sigala 10:32

understandable.

Lizzie Fischer 10:34

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Rebecca Sigala 10:35

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 10:36

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 10:36

Yeah, it's so interesting to me. I'm like, wait, one second we're talking about, like, God and gratitude and spirituality, and the next minute, like, people are comparing, like, how many calories they ate that day. Like, just seems so off, and it's so sad how just, I guess, pervasive it is.

Lizzie Fischer 10:55

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 10:56

Everywhere.

Lizzie Fischer 10:56

It is. Mm-hmm. I think that it is really hard to get away from, obviously, especially with the way that social media algorithms work.

Rebecca Sigala 11:07

Yeah. Like,

Lizzie Fischer 11:08

even if you're just- Oh, my gosh a little curious- It comes

Rebecca Sigala 11:10

for me, and I'm like, no, that's not- Mm-hmm the algorithm. Like- Mm-hmm

Lizzie Fischer 11:13

that's

Rebecca Sigala 11:13

not what I'm looking at.

Lizzie Fischer 11:16

Yeah. Even if you're just a little bit curious and you watch the video- Mm for 10 seconds, like, you will see more, and- Get anxiety- that is how it works

Rebecca Sigala 11:23

about that 'cause I'm like, oh, I wanna- Mm-hmm see what this is 'cause I wanna talk about it, but then I'm like, oh, no, my whole feed is gonna be like this.

Lizzie Fischer 11:29

Totally. A lot of people in our space will create another account, a burner account, so they can- Oh go to that account, watch those kind of videos- Smart to be informed. It's super smart. I got that idea from, uh, thisismallory, if you know her. Mm. Uh, she's- I don't, actually she's great. Yeah, she... I would recommend her to everyone who wants to unlearn wellness culture. But she, uh, calls out a lot of the things happening in the media, especially things happening in America right now, but that's another topic.

Rebecca Sigala 12:00

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 12:00

Um, yeah, but I think that having a little burner account can be a super great way to stay informed on what's happening in that space, but without it ruining your, your safe place on your algorithm. Because I personally feel like my social media is a safe place I can go, that doesn't spiral me when it comes to, like, body image or food.

Rebecca Sigala 12:19

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 12:20

But I know that's not the, the case for other people, and that it is a place where when they open up their phone, they are immediately fed, like, what you could be doing better. Yeah. Comparison to other people's bodies. Yeah. Which is crazy. And then

Rebecca Sigala 12:31

everybody around them just further, validates that belief

Lizzie Fischer 12:35

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Exactly, that it's worth your time and your energy to put focus towards this, and that you could be happier if you obsessed

Rebecca Sigala 12:45

over it just a little more. Just do

Lizzie Fischer 12:46

this. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 12:47

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And also, I, I'm sorry I kind of skated over the eating disorder and your story. Mm-hmm. And I'm so sorry that you went through that.

Lizzie Fischer 12:55

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 12:55

And, I'm curious kind of how your journey continued to evolve after that, or even- Yeah during it.

Lizzie Fischer 13:03

Totally. Uh, well, yes, I'll dive a little bit more into, in the depths of it, because I think that's what's so important- Yeah to see the contrast. Like, when I was deep in my eating disorder, it was during college and, post-grad for a little bit. I just felt like that is all there was to life, was focusing on shrinking my body and feeling just disconnected from my body. Like-

Rebecca Sigala 13:30

Mm-hmm

Lizzie Fischer 13:31

I would go to the gym, usually to work on my appearance, right? For no other reason. But I would feel like- Even

Rebecca Sigala 13:38

if you weren't just saying that. Like, was it conscious at the time?

Lizzie Fischer 13:41

Yes.

Rebecca Sigala 13:42

Yeah. You're like, "Okay, I wanna have-"

Lizzie Fischer 13:44

Yeah

Rebecca Sigala 13:45

be whatever the means.

Lizzie Fischer 13:47

Totally. I was never going because it felt good or because I liked it. I was forcing myself to go. and I remember feeling like everyone was looking at me, looking at my body, and- Mm-hmm feeling like static electricity. Like a... Or no, what is that? Like, when you change the channel on an old TV and it's just like tsh. That's how my brain felt. Yeah. Um, all the time, because I was constantly just anxious and thinking about my body. And I think that my eating disorder was perpetuated by my anxiety because- Mm I didn't have other coping tools, and so it was just if I focus on my body I'm less anxious, which wasn't true. Mm-hmm. But that's what I thought

Rebecca Sigala 14:28

would be. Right. I actually just wrote that in one of my last posts. Like, thinking- Mm-hmm about your body is not being in your body, and when you think about your body, then you stay in your head and not in your body. So I think that, that just makes a lot of sense.

Lizzie Fischer 14:42

Yeah. Exactly. And I lived that for so long, like, just counting my calories, trying different diets. Like, the usual. Like, how many

Rebecca Sigala 14:52

years did this span over?

Lizzie Fischer 14:54

Well, I mean, I would say it started in high school, like my junior year. Yeah. Uh, so I'm doing math, probably 10 years, I mean, was the total- Wow of like the disordered behaviors and just- Yeah thinking about my body all the time. But it definitely started sooner of like feeling like I was too big. Like I was told in fourth grade by my friends that like I was too big to do whatever they wanted to do. We were doing like cheerleading preps and I was like- Oh "I wanna, I wanna try." Oh

Rebecca Sigala 15:22

my gosh.

Lizzie Fischer 15:23

Oh my God. A big moment for like- And they were your friends little kids. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 15:25

It wasn't like just a group of people.

Lizzie Fischer 15:27

Yeah, they weren't trying to bully me, it just-

Rebecca Sigala 15:30

They're like, "No, you can't do

Lizzie Fischer 15:30

this" the girls saying. Mm-hmm. Wow.

Rebecca Sigala 15:33

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 15:33

Yeah, so it's like you believe- That sticks

Rebecca Sigala 15:35

with you.

Lizzie Fischer 15:36

It does. It does. And my mom also said some things that she didn't mean to, or she didn't mean for them to come off this way, but they did, about like, Well, I don't want this to happen to you. I don't want you to wind up in a bigger body." And I- Mm-hmm so it's like, "Oh my gosh, well, I'm gonna do everything I can to not."

Rebecca Sigala 15:54

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah,

Lizzie Fischer 15:56

so it was

Rebecca Sigala 15:57

all I thought about. And even if you're not consciously thinking about those comments o- like, all the time or over the years, I think it just from a very young age kinda creates this relationship, like the foundation of the relationship we have with our body.

Lizzie Fischer 16:13

Right. Exactly. And so that is all that I thought about for years, and then- Wow I think that I finally started to walk out of it because it was COVID and I had no coping tools, no gym. I just had my friends that I lived with and- That's about it, and my dog. And so in that time, I could not do what I normally did, which was, like, go out to eat, drink, binge, right? Or binge- Yeah purge. I couldn't do that because there were people around me all the time, and so I had to tell them, like, "This is what I'm doing. I don't wanna do this anymore. Can you sit with me through this feeling till it goes away?" Um- Mm.

Rebecca Sigala 17:01

This is therapy?

Lizzie Fischer 17:03

No, this is- Oh with my friends.

Rebecca Sigala 17:05

Whoa.

Lizzie Fischer 17:06

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So side note- Some good friends

Rebecca Sigala 17:11

you've got there.

Lizzie Fischer 17:12

Some good friends. Like, I just told them to sit with me till the feeling went away. I don't remember if I explicitly told them, like, because of my eating disorder. I just remember saying that-

Rebecca Sigala 17:23

Mm

Lizzie Fischer 17:23

I'm struggling with this. Sit here." And they did, and they sat with me for, like, 30 minutes pretty much in silence, 'cause I was so anxious 'cause I couldn't do what I normally did. And eventually, that feeling went away, and I was like, "Huh, this is good. I did it. Like, I could do it again." And I just kept trying over and over and over, and it wasn't perfect. Wow. Healing is not linear, as we know. but eventually-

Rebecca Sigala 17:47

That's very impressive that you took that on yourself and figured that out yourself. It's beautiful.

Lizzie Fischer 17:55

Yeah. I think that there's a lot of ways to do healing when it comes to eating disorders. Obviously, if someone's, like, at a point where it is-

Rebecca Sigala 18:06

Life-threatening

Lizzie Fischer 18:07

medically harmful, obviously people need treatment. But for me- It's

Rebecca Sigala 18:13

probably always medically harmful, right?

Lizzie Fischer 18:16

Yes.

Rebecca Sigala 18:16

Like, to some extent. Yes, that is

Lizzie Fischer 18:17

true. But you mean,

Rebecca Sigala 18:19

like, life-threatening or-

Lizzie Fischer 18:20

Yes

Rebecca Sigala 18:21

to a certain point.

Lizzie Fischer 18:23

Absolutely, it is always harmful. But I learned- the health outcomes- Mm-hmm of that as well, which helped me work my way out of it. Because for me, learning, like, I'm a musician and I like to sing, and that I was, like, ruining my vocal cords and that my teeth were going to-

Rebecca Sigala 18:44

Mm.

Lizzie Fischer 18:45

like the enamel- Right. Deteriorate was gonna be broken down. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And what else? Like, that it was wrecking my metabolism, and my acne was probably, due to a lot of that. And, like, learning these little things, I was like, oh. Like, helping understand the science of it actually helped me to heal as well, which was interesting.

Rebecca Sigala 19:07

Mm. Yeah, that is really interesting.

Lizzie Fischer 19:09

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 19:10

So that's how you moved through your eating disorder at first.

Lizzie Fischer 19:14

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 19:15

And then what happened?

Lizzie Fischer 19:17

And then-

Rebecca Sigala 19:19

Tell me more I didn't

Lizzie Fischer 19:20

heal the root. Didn't heal the root, just healed the behavior, right? Right. So I stopped throwing up, but the problem was that I wasn't in my body. I wasn't connected to my body. Mm-hmm. So- Right that's where the orthorexia part came in. Um, that is when- Mm-hmm I just found a different coping tool of-

Rebecca Sigala 19:39

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 19:39

still obsessing over shrinking my body and perfection, right? Which perfectionism- You've convinced yourself,

Rebecca Sigala 19:46

like, this is healthier and-

Lizzie Fischer 19:48

Mm-hmm

Rebecca Sigala 19:49

I can do this.

Lizzie Fischer 19:50

Yes. And it was, like, peak intermittent fasting time, so a lot of that.

Rebecca Sigala 19:56

Oh

Lizzie Fischer 19:56

my gosh. Which was exhausting and so hard on my body. I would go work out on a empty stomach, like, which is just so frustrating as you talked about in your last episode with your last guest. Like, people are out here sharing this information on the internet that is untrue, that they haven't checked their sources. They're just spreading this information. Yeah. Even if their intentions are good, like, whatever their good intentions might be. I'm air quoting here- Right for people not watching the video. Yeah. But, like, they might think it's for health's sake, but did you know that they didn't do that research on women, right? Like- Mm-hmm you're spreading this information to women. And so I was someone who was absolutely a victim to all of it. Like, I took in all the information and tried everything.

Rebecca Sigala 20:42

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 20:43

Spent all the money on all the supplements

Rebecca Sigala 20:46

Wow.

Lizzie Fischer 20:47

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 20:47

And I mean, as hard as that was to go through for so many years, I'm sure that really informs how you do your work today.

Lizzie Fischer 20:57

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I am so glad that I did because I'm able to help people and see people where they're at and be like, "Yeah, I get it." Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 21:05

Right. like, I can't really imagine helping people with this deep of healing and transformation without really understanding it on a deep level.

Lizzie Fischer 21:17

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so

Rebecca Sigala 21:19

too. And I, I'm curious, like, I mean, I don't know, you said you didn't go to eating disorder treatment centers or anything like that. That wasn't part of your story?

Lizzie Fischer 21:27

No, and that is why what I do now is very much focused on, like, I don't even love the word root cause, 'cause I think wellness culture kinda took that too. Mm-hmm. But what I do is very much focused on getting to, like, what are the beliefs that you're carrying about your body, because I think that when we can rewire and rewrite those beliefs, everything else changes, because that's what we operate out of, is the, the beliefs that we have about ourselves.

Rebecca Sigala 21:55

Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Fischer 21:56

so for me, going to eating disorder treatment wasn't necessary, because I did go to therapy. I saw a therapist explicitly for, like... Um, I experienced sexual trauma growing up. Mm. And that- That's right was, yeah, super hard, and for any woman out there listening, like, I'm with you. Yeah. And you can always reach out to me on social media. But it, it sucked, and it, like, definitely led to that disembodiment of, like, my body's not a safe place to be, and a lot of dissociation. Mm-hmm. And so going to therapy and learning about, not even learning, more just, like, getting-

Rebecca Sigala 22:38

Experiencing

Lizzie Fischer 22:40

Taking myself back to those moments and processing through it- Mm-hmm with, like, a safe person- Yeah and then understanding myself, being able to give myself a lot of grace for the ways that I- Yeah had operated for so long was huge. That's

Rebecca Sigala 22:55

really beautiful.

Lizzie Fischer 22:56

Yeah. I think I judged myself so hard, and so being like, "Oh, there's a reason why you've been this way, and we can make peace with that. We can forgive that, and now we can write a different story."

Rebecca Sigala 23:08

Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, I remember the first time my therapist was like, "I think you're really hard on yourself." This was, like, more than a decade ago. I was like, "What?" I just, I'm like, this is how I think. This is how I relate to myself. This is how probably most people relate to themselves. Mm-hmm. And, yeah, I think it actually probably is the way most people relate to themselves because we're taught to be so harsh on ourselves. Yeah. but yeah, that can be incredibly helpful, and I also relate to, like, going to therapy for certain things and then having that help your relationship with your body even if it wasn't the thing you were focusing on in therapy.

Lizzie Fischer 23:48

Yeah, absolutely, because, I mean, I think it all goes together. It's all connected. Um-

Rebecca Sigala 23:54

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 23:55

and you cannot... If you have any reason why you are disconnected from your body, whether that be any type of abuse or assault or neglect as a kid-

Rebecca Sigala 24:05

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 24:06

it will impact your relationship to your body in some way, shape, or form, whether that is, like, disembodiment, disconnection, um- Mm-hmm or neglect. Like-

Rebecca Sigala 24:17

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 24:17

and I think that you have to understand the way that those things are impacting you-

Rebecca Sigala 24:25

Right

Lizzie Fischer 24:25

so that you can forgive yourself and so that you can do it differently. And I think- Yeah for so long I was trying to use dieting and, like, being thin as my coping tool to be like- Yeah "I will like my body if I just do this, if I just try hard enough."

Rebecca Sigala 24:43

Mm.

Lizzie Fischer 24:44

But there was no way I was gonna like my body with the way that I perceived my body and myself- Yeah at the time.

Rebecca Sigala 24:50

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 24:51

No matter what it looked like.

Rebecca Sigala 24:52

100%, and that makes me think of the way that I actually came to you was through listening to Jillian Michaels' debate with body positive activists, which was-

Lizzie Fischer 25:03

Uh-huh

Rebecca Sigala 25:03

like a train wreck in my opinion. I agree. Um, and then I, like,

Lizzie Fischer 25:06

I put

Rebecca Sigala 25:06

it into the search, and I found you. I'm so happy. I guess that's the good thing that came out of that debate for me.

Lizzie Fischer 25:14

Totally.

Rebecca Sigala 25:15

and we both made commentary on a certain clip that she had talked about, where she said that it's not about, you know, systems or diet culture. It's really just because someone probably touched you when you were younger. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious just now knowing your history, like- Mm-hmm how did that land for you, and what do you think about

Lizzie Fischer 25:36

that? To be frank, it pissed me off. I mean, I think that-

Rebecca Sigala 25:40

Yeah, I was just, like, jaw dropped, like, I can't believe she actually just freaking said that

Lizzie Fischer 25:45

totally. I just think it was so irresponsible because as I explained in my video, which maybe we can link it in the show notes, but- Yes If she's trying to connect the dots between adverse childhood experiences and health problems, that's valid because that is true. But that is correlation, that is not always causation. And she's talking about specifically obesity- Yeah also in quotes here, saying that being in a bigger body is a result of childhood trauma. Yeah. But what's really frustrating to me about that is that plenty of people with childhood trauma are not in bigger bodies.

Rebecca Sigala 26:24

Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Fischer 26:24

And what are we doing then? We're just neglecting that? Yeah. We're saying that the people in thin bodies don't have trauma? Like, are there-

Rebecca Sigala 26:32

Right. Yeah ways to say this? It just is messy and it was-

Lizzie Fischer 26:35

Mm-hmm

Rebecca Sigala 26:35

I feel like She was not the person to be talking about.

Lizzie Fischer 26:40

Yeah, and my comments on that post were crazy. Like, some people being like, "Mental health professionals have no idea what they're talking about. Jillian Michaels has all this experience with people." What? And these... And I just was like, "I have nothing to say to you," because I- Right you obviously didn't watch the video. Like-

Rebecca Sigala 26:57

Right

Lizzie Fischer 26:58

I'm not saying that I think she's a horrible person, I just think it was an irresponsible thing to say.

Rebecca Sigala 27:03

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 27:03

And people- That's

Rebecca Sigala 27:04

probably the worst thing she said.

Lizzie Fischer 27:06

Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. so with that, for me, what I want people to know is that your childhood experiences do impact your relationship to your body.

Rebecca Sigala 27:20

Right. But it doesn't impact- Yeah, that's the problem- the size of your body about even this whole debate. Sorry for interrupting. But I feel like- No, you're good that's the problem with the whole debate, which is, like, it's not that what she's saying doesn't have any truth in it. There are truths within the things that she's saying, taken out of context, not given with other information, like, very focused on a certain end result, which is people buying her stuff and wanting to be thinner, and- Mm-hmm she's part of that diet culture and all those industries that we always talk about. So of course she's gonna be talking about it like that. but yeah, that's the hard part that I find, when I follow people or I, I see people talk about, like, weight loss and things online, is that there's maybe some truth in what they're saying, and then that's even more harmful because then people latch onto that and then just- Mm-hmm keep going with it. Does that make sense?

Lizzie Fischer 28:10

Totally. Oh, 100%. I mean, it's just like in any toxic, like, religious culture. It's like-

Rebecca Sigala 28:16

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 28:17

you can start by using a Bible verse. Yeah. Um, or I know that you're Jewish, like something from the Torah, but it's like, and then they- Mm-hmm put their own personal spin on it with their own personal- Right opinions and things that aren't, backed by science, that then therefore is harmful. Because people trust you because you gave them this inch and you're taking a mile, so.

Rebecca Sigala 28:37

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 28:38

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 28:38

Yeah. Sorry, so you were going back to what you want people to know about the childhood-

Lizzie Fischer 28:44

Oh, gosh, um- impact of

Rebecca Sigala 28:45

our relationship with our body.

Lizzie Fischer 28:47

Yeah, just that, like, absolutely your history impacts your relationship to your body, and that's, that's not a bad thing. No. That's just information to learn and to better understand yourself. But it doesn't lead to the size of your body. Like-

Rebecca Sigala 29:04

Mm

Lizzie Fischer 29:05

your weight doesn't have to do with that necessarily. And maybe aspects of it do, but believing that about yourself isn't helpful. And that is why- Mm when clients come to me, I'm never, like, they can tell me that they have a goal deep down to lose weight, but I, I let them know that, like, I won't be talking about weight loss with you or the size of your body. Like, we will only be talking about how you feel within your body and how you feel- Mm-hmm within your life because-

Rebecca Sigala 29:32

Have you lost clients because of... Like, not lost clients, but, like, did people decide not to go with you because of that? No, actually-

Lizzie Fischer 29:37

Or are they already coming to you

Rebecca Sigala 29:39

knowing that?

Lizzie Fischer 29:41

I think they have a good idea of what they're getting themselves into. like I literally had a discovery call two days ago where the, the gal was like, "I wanna lose weight for my wedding," and blah, blah, blah. And I, I told her, I was like-

Rebecca Sigala 29:52

I don't do that

Lizzie Fischer 29:52

With you, I'm not gonna focus on weight loss with you. But I will focus on you feeling really good and present in your body." And she was like, "That's what I really want."

Rebecca Sigala 30:03

Oh. "And it'd be

Lizzie Fischer 30:04

cool."

Rebecca Sigala 30:06

Right. Did she decide- Yeah to work with you?

Lizzie Fischer 30:08

Yes. Yes. Wow.

Rebecca Sigala 30:09

So that's exciting.

Lizzie Fischer 30:11

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 30:11

Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, like, how you feel about that. Like, It's such a delicate, conversation with clients who, of course, that's what the deeper thing is that they want, is to feel connected to their bodies and to feel alive and to feel confident. And we've just been told that the way to do that is to shrink our bodies and to look- Mm-hmm a certain way. So they're like, "Well, that's, that's the path." So of course they wanna- Yeah lose weight on some level when they begin working with us. And then at the same time, that's not what they ultimately want. Mm-hmm. How do you talk about it on your social media? Are you just, like, really straightforward about it? do you give people, like, a different entry point, if that makes sense?

Lizzie Fischer 30:59

Mm-hmm. A couple different things. Um

Rebecca Sigala 31:04

Sometimes I get really frustrated with this, so I'm just curious.

Lizzie Fischer 31:08

Mm-hmm. I kind of ask them for their trust, that, like, I am going to help you work towards feeling good in your body, feeling comfortable in your skin, feeling present in your life. Mm-hmm. And all the feelings that you desire are what we're gonna walk towards.

Rebecca Sigala 31:30

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 31:30

We're just not gonna focus on your body, like the size- Yeah or the shape of it.

Rebecca Sigala 31:34

Right.

Lizzie Fischer 31:35

We are gonna do things like, like movement, like even exercise, that help you connect to your body, but whatever changes happen are just up to your body's blueprint, is, like, usually what I'll say. Right. Like, the, the body that your body wants to be in. I wonder- Like, that's your ideal body if, like, when they start,

Rebecca Sigala 31:52

they think, like, "Okay. Well, maybe I'm gonna lose weight too."

Lizzie Fischer 31:55

Totally, and they might. Yeah. And, like, that's fine. Like, you might shrink, you might grow. Yeah. I don't care. But, like...

Rebecca Sigala 32:00

Right. Right.

Lizzie Fischer 32:02

Just, but every single person I have worked with, regardless of body change, at the end, they feel more at home in their bodies and more safe- Mm-hmm within themselves, and, like, they can trust themselves. Beautiful. And that is, like, all that I care about. Self-trust. That's what it's all about. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then you feel- Body trust confident in your skin because you trust yourself, and you've unlearned all the BS that has told you you need to be the smallest version of yourself.

Rebecca Sigala 32:28

Yeah. Yeah. I do sometimes find that just that belief I need to lose weight- Mm-hmm gets in the way of the deeper healing.

Lizzie Fischer 32:41

It does.

Rebecca Sigala 32:42

It's like one of the blocks.

Lizzie Fischer 32:45

I think it feels like self-care to people.

Rebecca Sigala 32:47

Mm-hmm. Like health. I just wanna be healthy- Yeah and lose weight. Mm-hmm. It just goes together.

Lizzie Fischer 32:53

Yeah. Yeah, which is so interesting 'cause I couldn't tell you the last time I weighed myself.

Rebecca Sigala 32:59

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 32:59

And I know that some people when they say lose weight, they just mean be smaller. But it's so interesting to me that, like, again, back to, like, recreational therapy, this idea of, like, the domains of our wellbeing, we will neglect all the things to pursue a number on a scale or, like, a smaller pant size, you know?

Rebecca Sigala 33:19

And that- And actually not end up being, quote unquote, "healthier" or- Yeah feeling better or thinking about your overall wellbeing.

Lizzie Fischer 33:27

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's a lot of people in the intuitive eating world that will make, like, these playful videos where they're like, You think that you're obsessed with your body and all these things, but really you just need a hobby." Which, like, I don't think is, like, the kindest way to say that, but I do see what they're trying to say is, like, we spend so much time and energy focusing on our body, and if we just expand our perspective to like, oh, I don't do anything for enjoyment. Like, that was a big part of my healing journey- Yeah

Rebecca Sigala 34:01

of

Lizzie Fischer 34:01

finding my way out of my eating disorder was, like, going on walks with my dog, hanging out with my friends, practicing being present, going to yoga. Touching grass. Literally. Like- Mm-hmm Yes all the little things that make life joyful and worth living were a huge part of healing, but I think it's because the less you focus on your body and the more you focus on all the other things that make life wonderful, the easier it is- Yeah to, to be comfortable in your skin.

Rebecca Sigala 34:32

Yeah. it still blows me away, like, how far I've come on my journey. I'm sure you'll relate to this. Mm-hmm. Because it was so deeply ingrained in us and we thought this way for so many years that sometimes I'm like, "Oh," like, "I really feel this way?" Like, I really, like, love my body and don't feel like I need to change it. And- Yeah it constantly impresses me, and then I'm like, wow, my life is so different because of that. I recently began CrossFit, which I did like eight years ago- Mm-hmm from a bit of a different place. I was on my healing journey, but it wasn't, like, something about just shrinking my body or anything like that. but I definitely seen how far I've come now going back there, and I'm just thinking about all the little things like walking in, you know, what I'm wearing. am I comparing myself to other people? I'm like, none of that is happening. Mm. Mm-hmm. Or, like, trying to make sure... Like, you know, I'm coming in and I haven't worked out in a while, and really listening to my body. She's like, "Okay, well, you should do this amount." I'm like, "Well, okay, I'm actually gonna stop here 'cause I know my body now." Mm-hmm. And not feeling ashamed of that, not feeling like I'm less than. and then I, like, I took a selfie after the class today, and I'm like, it's so nice to be able to start, like, a fitness journey, whatever that means, or just a routine, and not feel like I need to change my body at all. I just wanna- Yeah feel more alive in it.

Lizzie Fischer 36:04

Mm-hmm. I love

Rebecca Sigala 36:06

that so much. It's just a completely different everything.

Lizzie Fischer 36:09

Mm-hmm. Which is incredible, and it is so cool to look back and be like, wow, how things have changed. And I literally had a moment like that this morning. I, since I teach yoga, I'm around mirrors all the time, like full body mirrors, and I passed the mirror this morning after class and, like, observed my legs and was like thinking, "I have, like, thick thighs," you know? But not, not in negativity Yeah Just, like, observing them.

Rebecca Sigala 36:36

It was neutral?

Lizzie Fischer 36:38

It was just neutral. It was just, like, an observation, and- Cool which I don't even think is necessary, but it was interesting because it just brought me back to, like, wow, I used to hate seeing my reflection. Like, it used to be so triggering to just, like, see my body. Wow. And it would just lead to, like, a spiral of, like, okay, here's what I can do today to shrink. Here's my plan.

Rebecca Sigala 36:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 36:58

And it was so interesting to just be like, wow, that was just nice. I just observed, and I moved on with my life. Yeah. And that's not to say that bad body image days don't come, 'cause they do.

Rebecca Sigala 37:08

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 37:09

But what I talk about with my clients is that it's like with mindfulness, if you practice meditation, you are not trying to just clear your thoughts. You're trying to find something to focus on or something to observe, whether that's your breath or your body or a specific train of consciousness. Not, like, getting rid of the negative thoughts. You're shifting your focus. Yeah. Yes, and so with meditation, it's how long can I stay on this path of what I'm focusing on, and then when I feel myself veer off the path, how long does it take me to return? Mm. To notice it gently and kindly and return. And so with bad body image days or bad body image moments, it's, like, not about never having them, uh, but it's about how gently can I return to neutrality.

Rebecca Sigala 37:59

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 37:59

Maybe even positivity, which is fun, too.

Rebecca Sigala 38:02

Mm-hmm.

Lizzie Fischer 38:02

Um, but that is what's so cool, is that it's like, oh, I still have those moments, and I hear those thoughts. Yeah. But they're quieter, and I'm able to return to neutral a lot easier.

Rebecca Sigala 38:14

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I find that with all healing things, like, how quickly can I- Kind of move toward myself- Yeah or feel regulated or feel neutral or it's like having all of these tools and, practicing them really actually helps that, that amount of time and, like, what it feels like even in it. Like, it's not as intense as perhaps it might have been in the past, and- Yeah it's a lot easier to navigate, which is just very, very helpful. Yeah. You don't stay in that cycle for as long. Right. I agree with you. I think that's really a sign of healing.

Lizzie Fischer 38:59

Mm-hmm. Right. Which is why a lot of, like, these other coping tools that support other aspects of our like mental health and wellbeing apply to our

Rebecca Sigala 39:10

relationships with our bodies. To overlap. Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 39:11

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so

Rebecca Sigala 39:13

yeah So you talk about neutrality. Is that- The approach that you take with your clients is neutrality, kind of like acceptance. this is something that I'm really passionate about. Mm-hmm. Um, and I've talked about it with other, therapists and body image coaches before. Mm-hmm. I feel like it's probably gonna come up in every one of these conversations.

Lizzie Fischer 39:34

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 39:35

Um, but how do you feel about feeling beautiful? Is that important?

Lizzie Fischer 39:41

Mm-hmm. So I actually, I like, in your bio it says, uh, body image beyond acceptance, right? Um-

Rebecca Sigala 39:49

Mm-hmm. You

Lizzie Fischer 39:50

did like that? Totally, yeah. Not everybody would. I, I think body acceptance is, like, fine. You know? Like, that's good. It's help- It's a great place to start it can be helpful. It's helpful. it's neutral. But I am not antibody positivity either. Mm-hmm. And I actually prefer to say body love, but not love- Same as, like, not love as, like, I look at it and I love it, I just think it's great, like, all the time. It's not that. It's that I choose love, like I choose in a romantic partnership, like, I choose to love my husband every single day, and to show up with care for him- Mm-hmm every single day. And for me, that is how I feel about my body. I use that same example. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, in that I love my body because I choose to show up for it with care every single day.

Rebecca Sigala 40:36

Right. And- It's not like I'm positive about it all the time. It's I- Yeah respect it, I trust it. Mm-hmm. I'm, I'm engaged in a relationship with it. That's love.

Lizzie Fischer 40:46

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And what's cool is that when you show up with that love for your partner every day, there are days where you do feel overwhelming emotions of love, right?

Rebecca Sigala 40:56

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 40:57

Um, and I feel that way about my body, where I'm like, heck yeah, I like feel beautiful or I feel grateful. Yeah. Like, those things happen, but I'm just not relying on it to, like, fuel my care for my body.

Rebecca Sigala 41:09

Hmm. I love the way you put that. That's really cool.

Lizzie Fischer 41:13

Thank you. I love that we align on that.

Rebecca Sigala 41:17

Yeah. It's a big deal. I, I really don't know a lot of people who... I mean, it seems like a small thing. It's not. It's actually, like, a whole approach and way of thinking because I often think that when you focus so much on neutrality and acceptance, then it prevents people from allowing themselves to feel beautiful, and then that becomes a bad thing.

Lizzie Fischer 41:42

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 41:43

It's like beauty is only diet culture and beauty standards, but that's not true. No. Beauty always has existed. Mm-hmm. And it can be outside of that. I don't believe that it's important for other people to think you're beautiful. Yeah. But it is important for you to see beauty in yourself.

Lizzie Fischer 42:03

Mm-hmm. Yeah, which I think also does go back to the deeper layers, of course, of, like, do you like yourself, you know?

Rebecca Sigala 42:13

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 42:13

Cause I don't think you can see that beauty if you don't.

Rebecca Sigala 42:15

Right. Right.

Lizzie Fischer 42:16

But-

Rebecca Sigala 42:16

And also, how do you see beauty? Mm-hmm. Like, that's why the unlearning part is such a big deal for me, like, helping my clients unlearn diet culture and beauty standards, and also then redefine what beauty means for them. Because if you're, if you're only seeing beauty as a certain thing, the thing that we were taught, then how are you gonna see yourself as beautiful unless you're that?

Lizzie Fischer 42:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you find that as you have healed your relationship to, like, body, beauty, whatever it is, like, that you don't really care anymore? Like, that you're not striving to look a certain way anymore when it comes to, like, your physical appearance?

Rebecca Sigala 42:58

Hmm. That's a good question. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that I don't care. I definitely am not focused on looking a specific way.

Lizzie Fischer 43:10

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 43:11

And also not focused on how other people perceive me. Mm-hmm. And something that I've noticed about myself is a lot of the healing has really come with, which was the thing that I was so obsessed with before, the size, you know? Mm-hmm. and my stomach and certain parts of my body that I felt insecure about that I'm just like, "Oh my gosh," like, I'm just like, "I love it. I actually think it's beautiful." It's not just, like, a neutral thing for me anymore. and that feels really good. Mm-hmm but I love makeup, I love, like, doing my hair, I love fashion. and I think I find that so much more empowering now because it's coming from a place of, like, awareness and choice- Mm-hmm versus, like, I need to do this to be enough or to fit into a standard or to be worthy or any of them. Does that make sense? Yeah. Does that answer your question? Oh,

Lizzie Fischer 44:09

absolutely. Yeah. I think I, I completely agree. Like, a lot of the things that I do now might look from the outside similar. Like, I still go to the gym. Yeah. But I do it 'cause I love myself, and because I, 'cause it feels good. And I do wear makeup, not like I used to, but, like, I do these things-

Rebecca Sigala 44:27

Not like I used to.

Lizzie Fischer 44:28

Yeah. But I do these things because it just feels fun. It feels like expression. It feels like, it feels even playful. Like- Yeah dressing in a certain way is, like, not to flatter my body, but just to express myself.

Rebecca Sigala 44:43

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Flatter your body, that's an interesting phrase, 'cause I started my work as a boudoir photographer 13 years ago. Mm-hmm. And it's always like, "Can you flatter me?" Like, and what does that mean? Can you make me look smaller? Always. Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 45:00

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 45:02

And then it's like- Absolutely well, maybe flatter, like, maybe there is things that, like, flatter your body, just, like, make you feel good, or show your body 'cause you like- Mm-hmm your body as it is. It's just interesting. Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 45:15

Absolutely. I mean, as a woman who, like, I'm not in a bigger body. I, I wouldn't even say I'm, like, a mid-sized girly, but I'm not thin. Yeah. And I love now showing up on social media and doing, like, my yoga videos that I do. Like, I'll do these, like, yoga and talking videos. Yeah. I cannot believe, but I can, because I've done the work, but I cannot believe sometimes that I'm okay with, like, my stomach rolling over my shorts and with, like- I know. It's so, so suprising my cellulite and, like, my arms not looking ultra toned. And I'm just like, "Yeah, whatever. Like, this is real. This is me," and I'm happy for people to see that because I want them to be able to be like, "Oh, I belong too." Like- Yeah all the yoga videos and people I follow A lot of them are very thin. Yeah. And I have like, started following people in diverse bodies, but, like, so many popular yoga influencers are very thin. Right. And so being someone who's like you-

Rebecca Sigala 46:14

Well, also, that's the ones that s- often become successful because then people see their- Right like personal trainers, people like- Yeah want a specific look 'cause they're like, "I wanna look like that."

Lizzie Fischer 46:24

Totally. They're like, "Your body's your business card," which is such a disgusting phrase, but- My

Rebecca Sigala 46:28

God. So disgusting.

Lizzie Fischer 46:29

Mm-hmm, yeah. But within yoga I've had so many students be like, "I really appreciate, like, that you're not someone in a really small body because I feel a little safer in my skin." And I- Mm I try really hard to give really inclusive cues of like, you know, I'll never say, "Suck your stomach in," or like, "Connect your belly- Yeah to your thigh," because your belly-

Rebecca Sigala 46:50

Yeah might

Lizzie Fischer 46:51

be really close to your thigh and someone else's might be far, you know?

Rebecca Sigala 46:55

Right.

Lizzie Fischer 46:55

Um, little things like that that just help us feel a little bit more like our bodies are okay the way that they are.

Rebecca Sigala 47:00

Right. And it can be hard because, like, people who are struggling with their body image, a lot of times they will, and it makes sense, like it's not, I'm not shaming anyone. Totally. Um, but they'll always find the way that their body is different or the same. It's, it's just a constant, like, comparison mode because that's- Mm where their mind is at that moment. Totally. And so it's like, it's hard to sometimes... I felt at least, like, with my boudoir photography portfolio, I was constantly trying to, like, expand it or, like, find people in bigger bodies or different bodies or disabled bodies, and it was a difficult thing 'cause I just never really felt like I could, like, show the full range. And, like, some people would say, "Wow," like, "I see your stuff and I just, like, feel at home, and there's so many women and, like, all these different bodies, and that's really incredible and so beautiful." And then other people would be like, "Everyone's gorgeous and thin in your portfolio." And so it's just a lot of times, like, where we meet them at in their journey.

Lizzie Fischer 48:07

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Think that it's interesting in this work, I don't know if you feel the same way, but I often tell my clients before we start working together that it is not an easy endeavor to choose this path particularly because you're not in the, like, wellness culture, diet culture space where, like, you have like, a direct mission of like- Yeah this is the goal. This is the rules I'm following. And it's not absolutely dissociating and doing whatever you want and just neglecting your body either. It's like I care for my body.

Rebecca Sigala 48:47

Wow, such a good point.

Lizzie Fischer 48:49

And I'm carving this, like, new path for myself that's a little- Mm-hmm tricky at first until it feels like home, you know? And I think that that's probably similar to what you do. It's like people feel that way, like they feel like there's, they're not being represented or whatever that might be. I'm verbally processing this, but-

Rebecca Sigala 49:06

Yeah,

Lizzie Fischer 49:06

yeah I think that- Love it once you pursue this different path, I like to say, like, the third door per se, um-

Rebecca Sigala 49:16

The, the path less traveled.

Lizzie Fischer 49:18

Yeah. You start to see like, oh, it doesn't matter that like I don't align with this or align with that. Like I'm finding what feels good for me. And as- Yeah cheesy as that sounds, it's, it, it's so true.

Rebecca Sigala 49:29

Do you do group programs at all?

Lizzie Fischer 49:32

I am launching a group program this summer. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 49:35

Ooh, amazing. Okay, so that's good for people to know. Yeah. Um, that's, I started my group program three and a half years ago. Mm-hmm. And at first I was doing one-on-one coaching and it was so powerful, and I started to, you know, think about how a group would be helpful. And then when I opened it, it was like it sealed the deal for me. I was like- Hmm this is how body image healing needs to be done. Not saying that you couldn't do it in conjunction with one-on-one or other things- Yeah 'cause of course It's important to look at all aspects of our, our lives. but oh my gosh, just women doing this together. Like- Not feeling alone. Feeling like they maybe finally belong with each other, and then can belong to themselves and in their own bodies is such a beautiful thing to witness. And, I personally sometimes feel like, yeah, that path less traveled can feel a little lonely sometimes, 'cause even some of my closest friends are like, "What are you ta-..." Like, we don't talk about this stuff because, like- Mm we just don't fully align. Mm-hmm. And, I even feel like I get so much from leading these communities because it's a place where we do and we're... Obviously everyone has different opinions, not everyone's exactly the same, but we're headed in the same direction.

Lizzie Fischer 50:56

Yeah. Exactly. I think it's similar to, for me, as someone who, like, has deconstructed my faith and put it back together in a way that works for me and God- I love that like, it feels similar to that- Yeah because it is... I don't align with a lot of, like, the beliefs I grew up with, And that's kind of complicated sometimes, 'cause like I'll go to church with my family and I'm like, "Ah, this is weird." Or, like, I'll be talking- I know to someone who doesn't at all believe in, like, a higher power, and I'm like, "I'm not jiving quite here either," but I know that what I have with God feels really good and that, like, that works for me. And I think that we so often feel like we have to, I don't know, be on the same page as other people, like, to feel good in ourselves. But I think- Right finding your own path to whatever it might be is really helpful. Yeah. And that's, like, again,

Rebecca Sigala 51:50

what

Lizzie Fischer 51:50

attract- I think that's

Rebecca Sigala 51:50

so connected to body image stuff because it's, it's so much about belonging. Like, we're wired- Yeah for belonging, and we're wired- Mm to, like, not wanna be the, the kid that your friend says, "Oh, I'm sorry you can't do that." Like, what you- Yeah were saying before with your story. Like, that feels like death to our brains, you know, our human brains. Yep. and so I think when you do this healing and the unlearning and the belonging to yourself and feeling at home in your body, I think it, it really, it just expands to every other aspect of your life, where you finally feel okay to just, like, be yourself, whether that's religion or your personality, using your voice. Like, all of these things are so deeply connected with body image because you now don't as much need to be exactly like everyone else in order to feel okay.

Lizzie Fischer 52:47

Yeah. It's interesting, 'cause I think it's this weird in between of I don't want to be seen as different- I want to be, like, able to, Like, fit into the crowd, per se.

Rebecca Sigala 53:00

Right. On

Lizzie Fischer 53:01

one hand,

Rebecca Sigala 53:01

maybe.

Lizzie Fischer 53:02

Yeah. And then also, you wanna stand out and be, like, beautiful and whatever it might be. So I don't know, that's a really hard thing for your brain to balance.

Rebecca Sigala 53:12

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 53:12

And so, so it's very nice to, to move away from all of that.

Rebecca Sigala 53:16

Yeah. I think kind of bringing it back to what you were saying in the beginning is, like, it's not about morality or being better or worse than anybody else. I really f- find that that comes up a lot for me, is, like, the having such a improved body image and helping women with theirs it's not, This person's more beautiful, this person's less beautiful. This person's better, this person's less. it's really like that embodiment and, and focusing on your own relationship with your body. I feel like I'm not fully explaining it well, but I think this might exemplify it a little bit more. My husband and I were talking about, like, I know someone posted something about how they would be really upset if, their husband didn't think they were the most beautiful woman in the world, or if they said something about another woman, and we were both just talking about how we don't see it like that anymore. Mm-hmm. It's not like one woman is more beautiful than the other. Everyone has beauty that exists in them, and that was kind of a, a light bulb moment for me. I'm like, wow, I really don't see it that way. Like, if some- if my husband was like, "That person's beautiful," it'd be like, I s- like, I see the beauty in them. I would never feel like, "Oh, do you think she's more beautiful than me?" Because we just don't rank people like that. Mm-hmm. We don't compare people like that.

Lizzie Fischer 54:30

Mm-hmm. Which is- But not

Rebecca Sigala 54:32

as a value, just, we don't do that anymore. Does

Lizzie Fischer 54:35

that

Rebecca Sigala 54:35

make-

Lizzie Fischer 54:35

Yeah. It's just not, like, fun. You just don't think about appearance that way. Yeah. I'm curious for you with, uh, what you do. This is... You might have to, like, cut this out. I don't know. We'll see. But I'm curious what your take is on, like, plastic surgery and people wanting to, like, change any aspect of, like, their face or their body.

Rebecca Sigala 54:57

Such a good question. I don't blame the individual- Mm-hmm for making those choices.

Lizzie Fischer 55:05

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 55:06

That's the air that we breathe. That's the society that we live in, and I think it makes a lot of sense. And if, if I have too much screen time, I'm like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "Botox," you know? Like, you start thinking about certain things. and without that awareness or the tools to shift that, then, of course, that's the option that they're choosing. But as a whole and as a society, I think it's very, very sad that it's not only just something that people are opting into, it's now the standard. And, It feels Like, it isn't really an option for people anymore. Of course it is. Of course it is, but they have a lot less free will in this, in this scenario because of all of the beliefs and now this is now the beauty standard, and we're not seeing as many people naturally age and see bodies do what they naturally do. And it just creates, yeah, an environment where people are even more focused on it, spending more money on it. It becomes like... I, I heard Nikki Glaser, she was talking about it on Call Her Daddy podcast. She was saying- Mm-hmm you know, at one point women were shamed for dyeing their hair, and now like, Botox and plastic surgery is like the same thing. Mm-hmm. And like, oh my gosh, you know? And it's like I find that once you take it to the point of something that needs to be constant, Something that you don't feel enough without doing or something that, costs a lot of money and, Like, there's risk involved, you know, health-wise, emotional-wise, like everything. And if you're willing to do that in order to achieve a certain look, then It's, it's just sad to me. Like, it's just like... But I don't see it as an individual problem as much as a systemic one.

Lizzie Fischer 57:05

Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that it does tie back to what you were saying earlier of like you just don't think about beauty like that anymore. Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 57:16

And

Lizzie Fischer 57:16

that's what doing a lot of this work is so helpful because- I don't know. I could have picked myself apart to the end, before, like when I was in disordered thoughts, about- Yeah my body. and even I think people who aren't dealing with disordered behaviors around food and body will still, if they're in beauty culture and in diet culture in any way, like it is super easy to pick yourself apart and to think what could be better.

Rebecca Sigala 57:42

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 57:43

It's

Rebecca Sigala 57:43

one of my favorite things. And it's, it's, it's encouraged. It's- Mm-hmm if you are into personal development, if you wanna be a better person, if you wanna, grow. Like I literally- Mm follow personal trainers who are like, My clients care about health. My clients prioritize themselves." This is, like you're not perfect as you are. Like, this is a way that you can even heal-

Lizzie Fischer 58:08

Mm-hmm

Rebecca Sigala 58:09

by just shrinking yourself, looking a certain way. It's like the body has become another part of personal growth, which I think is very dangerous.

Lizzie Fischer 58:18

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. it is, and it never stops.

Rebecca Sigala 58:23

How do you feel about like plastic surgery and things like that?

Lizzie Fischer 58:27

Um, yeah, it's complicated 'cause I'm very like body autonomy, but also-

Rebecca Sigala 58:32

Yeah, 100%. I... Like people need to choose, like, you know, so many of my friends- Yeah and so many people in my life have chosen that, and sometimes they like get nervous to tell me about it, and I'm like, "Great. Like, you chose that." Like I, I- Yeah would never shame anyone for making those choices.

Lizzie Fischer 58:49

For me, it just comes down to intention, which is literally, like even when I am about to go to the gym, I'm like, "What's my intention here? Why am I doing it?" Like, if someone has a nose that they literally can't not stop thinking about what their nose looks like and it just bothers the crap out of them and they feel like they need to change it, by all means, do it. But if like you're making these, for me, making micro adjustments to my face to feel like I am more worthy, that for me would be an intention that doesn't resonate with like what I really want for myself. So I think that is like the

Rebecca Sigala 59:27

draw for me. Yeah. That's like, that's a good way, that's a much simpler way of putting it. I-

Lizzie Fischer 59:31

Yeah

Rebecca Sigala 59:31

I can agree with that, and I find that when I'm talking to people who are like, "Yeah, I know, like it's not gonna really change my relationship with my body, and there's always gonna be something more," like I really appreciate that kind of honesty. I'm like- Cool. Like, at least you know that, you know? Versus people- Mm-hmm who are, like, just seeing it as a never-ending project of personal development, and, "I'm gonna be confident, I'm gonna love myself when this happens."

Lizzie Fischer 1:00:02

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 1:00:03

Or using it as a status symbol. Like, yeah, I think the intention is really important. and it's hard. Like, I have a teenage daughter, and she'll say things like, "Oh, that, that woman looks really young," or, "Your friend looks, like, so young," and I know that they've done work or they've gotten Botox. And that's, like, a tricky situation for me, because now this is what she's seeing. It's a standard.

Lizzie Fischer 1:00:26

Mm-hmm. It is. It is really tricky. I find that in the social media age, I'm sure it's really hard to be a parent. I don't have kids yet, but I do feel so grateful that I am able to prepare myself for when I do.

Rebecca Sigala 1:00:46

Yeah. Just

Lizzie Fischer 1:00:47

trying my best. We can't prevent everything, but trying my best to, like-

Rebecca Sigala 1:00:51

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 1:00:51

minimize their exposure to, like, diet culture and wellness culture and all the things.

Rebecca Sigala 1:00:58

It is, like, not, like, it's not even possible in a way. I mean, yes, you can limit it, for sure.

Lizzie Fischer 1:01:04

Yeah.

Rebecca Sigala 1:01:04

But, like, it's just so much a part of the world that we live in that I just think having conversations about it and, being a safe space for them is the best, the best thing that we can do. Absolutely. this has been so lovely. Thank you so much for being so authentic and sharing your story and your controversial points of view. And it's just, it's- it's really refreshing. Thank you so much. You're so welcome. Is there something that you wish more women would understand about body image or embodiment?

Lizzie Fischer 1:01:42

I think just that it's worth it. Like, if you've been doing the same thing for so long, you've been feeling the same way about your body, you've tried all the things and it, like, it works and then it doesn't work. And if you're tired of that cycle, then I promise you it is the most worth it risk you will ever take is to try to heal your relationship to your body, not by changing it, but by making peace with it in all the different ways that are possible, like, that you talk about, that I talk about.

Rebecca Sigala 1:02:12

Yeah.

Lizzie Fischer 1:02:13

That it will change your life and you will get your life back, like, from all the food thoughts, all the body thoughts that take you away from being present in this one precious life that you will ever get. Like, there's so many moments I will never get back, and so it is my mission Mm-hmm to help other people get theirs, you know?

Rebecca Sigala 1:02:30

There is, like, that grief- So I'd say that comes with that. I find that comes up a lot for clients. Like- Yeah what was I doing all those years? Like. Mm-hmm. It's, yeah, it's always about, like, bringing compassion to that because- Mm-hmm how could we have really known any better? Nobody taught us. Like, the fact that you- Yeah sat there with an emotion with your friend on your own without having someone teach you that, that's pretty rare, you know? Like, no one taught us- Mm how to trust our bodies or love ourselves or be in them, you know?

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:03

And I think that that moment is, uh, just like another divine download, you know? Like-

Rebecca Sigala 1:03:10

Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:10

that's what God told me to do, was to ask my friends to, to sit with me, and so I did. Um-

Rebecca Sigala 1:03:15

Beautiful.

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:16

Yeah. But you're- So

Rebecca Sigala 1:03:18

beautiful.

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:19

Yeah. Thank you. It's definitely just the most worth it thing that you can ever do, so- It's worth it 10 out of 10 recommend.

Rebecca Sigala 1:03:27

It's worth it, and it's not as hard as people think it is, I don't think.

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:32

No, it's not, and that's what's really cool. Like, my program, literally on my, website, where I'm like, when you're offering people change like this, it feels very far away. But it also can, like those initial changes and shifts can happen within, like, weeks of just- Yeah thinking differently Sometimes, like, one

Rebecca Sigala 1:03:54

session- Yeah

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:55

people are like,

Rebecca Sigala 1:03:56

Oh, I just didn't think about it that way before. Okay."

Lizzie Fischer 1:03:59

Totally. Yeah, like perspective shifts, little practices. Like, there's so many things where it is closer than you think, and so it's worth a try 'cause you've tried a lot. Try this.

Rebecca Sigala 1:04:11

Beautiful. Said so well. Where can people find you? Where do you hang out on social media? Mm,

Lizzie Fischer 1:04:18

I hang out on mostly Instagram. I try TikTok. It's so hard for me, but I do post my, like, podcast clips on TikTok, so I have- Oh, awesome my Instagram. Yeah, I have my Instagram, which is, uh, @Lizzieefischer.coaching and then my, uh, TikTok is bodiesoutsidethebox, so that's my podcast

Rebecca Sigala 1:04:34

title. Bodies outsidethebox.

Lizzie Fischer 1:04:35

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Sigala 1:04:36

Cool. I love that name. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. I feel like we could talk forever, but-

Lizzie Fischer 1:04:42

No

Rebecca Sigala 1:04:43

no, we have to end. I hope that we get to do something in the future, talk again, stay connected. Thank you so much.

Lizzie Fischer 1:04:49

Yeah, totally. Yes. Thank you, Rebecca.

Rebecca Sigala 1:04:51

Take care. Bye.